Winner, winner - better than a chicken dinner!...

Yee Haw!! I won Day 4 of Tim Holtz's 12 Tags of Christmas! WoooHoooo!!!! Zippedee DoDa!! Cool Beans!!

Can't wait to see what Santa Tims helper, Mario sends! I'm not using periods in this post, way too excited!! Go to www.timholtz.typepad.com to see the first six days of tags! (I'm not loving today's but if I could use ink instead of paint I see potential for serious fun!)

My Homage to Jeff Foxworthy...

Dear Debbie, Kat and Dimitra:

If you gave up smoking because you had to choose between the stamps you wanted and your cigarettes...you might be addicted to stamps

On marketing day you came to the stamp store first because if you went to the supermarket you might not have enought money left for stamps...you might be addicted to stamps

You've asked your LSS owner for the "Christmas Wish List" form and it's not even Labor Day yet...you might be addicted to stamps


If you wait until your husband goes to bed and then creep into the garage in your pj's to bring the bag of stamps you bought that afternoon so he won't see them...you might be addicted to stamps

If your "Vacation to Hawaii" piggy bank is suspiciously empty...you might be addicted to stamps

If you complain that your stamp store doesn't have a ground hog stamp - to celebrate the holiday...you might be addicted to stamps

If you start a petition campaign to your congressman demanding a mandatory, federal, three day weekend devoted to stamping...you might be addicted to stamps

You turn your child's room into a dedicated stamping studio and he/she is only starting 4th grade...you might be addicted to stamps

You have every take out and delivery restaurant within a five mile radius on speed dial and your kids have memorized the numbers...you might be addicted to stamps

If you start making up relatives to make cards for...you might be addicted to stamps

Any other symptoms anyone??

The Boob Tube...

Remember when TV was called the 'boob tube' by those who thought it would be the ruination of all future generations. That's a topic for another day especially considering all the junk that is on today. I want to go back to when getting a TV was a big deal and that first color TV put you on the map and hyped up your prestige on the block with the other kids.

I'm a child of television. I was seriously, seriously addicted to TV. I can remember the TV we had when I was a young child. It had a screen about 24", came in a cabinet with doors that closed and was black and white. Our next TV was a bigger model that had a color picture. I remember them delivering that TV!

I watched TV like going to church. It was a religion to me. To my parent's extreme frustration, I watched Saturday morning cartoons until about 12:30. The cartoons came earlier in the morning and shows like Sky King, Roy Rodgers and Rin Tin Tin came on later. Also on Saturday was Wonderama with Sonny Fox. There was another show that was a combination of games, cartoons and Johnny Carson on Sundays, also with Sonny Fox. He would sit at a desk like Johnny and had a small couch or chair next to him. Both the Sonny Fox shows had a live audience or bleachers of kids that would serve as contestants for the games. They gave away AWESOME!! prizes.

My parents weren't too fond of my TV addiction and my grandmother, much to my mother's dismay sealed my fate by giving me a portable B&W TV for my birthday. I don't know how old I was but it was well before high school and I quickly became adept at turning it on and off with the littlest amount of noise possible and watching it with the volume turned down so low it couldn't be heard downstairs. You see, my room was on the second floor - all by myself... My dad would send me to bed and I would get ready, turn out the lights, close the door as much as I dared and turn on the TV and watch all those 10:00 p.m. shows I couldn't stay up to see. My dad was a firm believer that a child needed 9-10 hours or more of sleep per night. Me, I could easily get by on 8 or less, but dad didn't buy into that.

Weekends were great. I'd go up and clean my room every weekend and watch Million Dollar Movie on WPIX. I discovered Fred Astaire and Ginger Rodgers, Eleanor Powell, Gene Kelly, and all the great 30's and 40's movies that filled up airspace on the local channels in NYC like WOR and WPIX and channel 5 which I can't remember the call signs for. It was like discovering a whole new world!

As I got older and my grades got lower, my TV was banished to the basement. That was fine, I had my rocking chair, a refrigerator and at Christmas time, my mother's cookies to snack on as I watched my evening shows.

I watched sports with my mother on the weekends. Bowling year round with Chris Schenkel and the Professional Bowlers Tour on Saturday afternoons, followed by the "thrill of victory and the agony of defeat", Wide World of Sports with Jim McKay.  Golf during the spring and baseball - the Mets during the summer and the Giants during the winter. I also got a smattering of tennis, ice skating, and car racing.

When it came time to go to college - I admit it, I panicked. No TV in my room, what would I do? The dorm had one TV in the basement lounge. I became a permanent fixture. My dorm mother always knew where to find me. On weekends my future husband and I would be the only ones there and we would get take-out grinders (subs), push the couches together and settle in for an evening of TV watching.

It's true what they say about college students scheduling their classes around their favorite soap operas. Our dorm was a designated "Young and the Restless" viewing site. Commuter students, students from other dorms, guys - would show up to watch Snapper, Jill, the Chancellors and others on a daily basis.

I'm a lot better now, I'm not as bad as I used to be. I don't have to have the TV on as background noise like others turn on a radio. I don't watch soaps everyday, sometimes I don't see them for weeks at a time. I do have my favorite shows though and DVR'ing is a must at times. I don't get a physical reaction (all right, maybe a little one) when my favorite shows are cancelled and the last episode is shown, sniff, sniff.

For the most part I still watch far more TV than most. I still have very eclectic tastes. I stopped buying the TV Guide way before they changed the format and ruined it. But I still look forward to the beginning of every new season, just not as avidly as before. I am more melancholy about TV knowing what great shows have gone before and dwindling amount of just as good show that have replaced them. This week I'm especially sad as I have watched the last week of All My Children. But, I think I'll come back to comment on that later in the week. For now it's time to check the listings to see what's on tonight.

Donna 2.0...

Ah, technology. Remember the days before remote controls, cell phones, cable, dish, HD, 3D television and computers? Unfortunately, I do. All of these came during my life time so you'd think I'd have a pretty good learning curve. After all it's not like I was Rip Van Winkle waking up to all these new fangled changes. That's what you'd think, right...well, not so much...

I swear, as much as I like technology and I do like technology, it's doing it's best to pass me by and thumb it's nose at me on the way. I feel like I've reached my technology plateau. It's like my mind is not capable of handling another upgrade, another newer, better version of what I already know and I'm questioning why do I need a tablet when I already haver a desktop, laptop, mini laptop, and a smartphone.

I feel like my operating system is obsolete and is incapable of accepting upgrades! I'm officially stuck at Donna 2.0. What is even more frustrating is my 14 year old can just look at a piece of technology, fiddle with it for a few minutes and have it mastered! That is so unfair! I used to be the go to for fixing the TV/VCR but no more. Now with the DVD player and the Wii plus the Fios hookup, I'm clueless. I want to watch a video but I have no clue how to change the wiring and connections to change from Wii to DVD. I've got an iPhone and I'm still struggling with using it. I want my old Blackberry back!

What will we do when Lex goes to college? We'll be at the mercy of our appliances that will talk to each other, our electronics that will talk to each other, our computers that talk to each other and none of them will talk to us! The only thing that I can hold over all this technology - I still buy the batteries!

Good and Bad...

It's been a while, how are you all doing? Me, just ducky - quack, quack...

Part of the reason it's taken so long for me to post has been a lack of creativity on my part, a little laziness and a just a little busy-ness for me. No major news to impart except that my hubby is back from Asia. My daughter has graduated from middle school, the dog is groomed and my MIL has started her dental implant procedure, scintillating, right - right...

This is where the good and the bad comes in. I like to think of myself as an optimistic pessimist. No, that's not an oxymoron. It's an accurate description of my thought processes and how I approach life. I am always hopeful, positive and optimistic about life. The glass is always half full - (it got that way because it has a slow leak...)

I don't expect bad things to happen, but I'm never surprised when they do. I reserve the right to not be surprised when things go south... get it? Some examples:

GOOD: I finally got my haircut and I still think I like it!

BAD: I look like Justin Beiber - just 50+ year old female version...

GOOD: It's finally summer! Sunshine, vacation, warm weather!

BAD: The sun hates me (and I hate the sun) I'm the type of person who goes out and burns going directly to red, peeling and either freckling or I go right back to white...I can't afford a vacation (and I desperately need one). My daughter has her heart set on going to NYC and I know we will be there during the hotest week in July (Kenzie's rule - whatever can go wrong, will go wrong). This brings me to warm weather - my internal thermostat is permanently in the HOT position and I will be a dripping, sodden mess two minutes after I walk out of the air conditioning...

GOOD: It's been a full year since my hysterectomy surgery and I have suffered NO complications or bad effects - Yippeee!!!

BAD: I gained back all the weight I lost....not.another.word.

GOOD: My daughter graduated from middle school with a very, very, very good average. (Very proud mama and papa here)

BAD: OMG! my daughter starts HIGH SCHOOL this September! ARRGGHH!!! Panic to follow...

I will have to drive her everyday as she chose to go to a different high school than she was assigned to. Can you say 7:45 a.m. start time! I can't get my left eye opened at 7:45 in the morning...

BAD BONUS: College in 4 years! We haven't saved enough money!!!! Is there a lottery drawing tonight?

So, you see - an optimistic pessimist. The perfect combination of both worlds...

Get your MAD on!...

Disclaimer: Sorry about this but I've just got to get this off my um, chest...

I have had a 'mad on' all week. I'm desperately looking for a way to get rid of it. So, I thought I'll pass it on to the unsuspecting people who read my blog.

It all started over last weekend when we had a taken a combined school field trip and family trip to Cleveland. Details not withstanding, we came home with a not so happy 14 year old.

I thought to solve her problem and cure my grump by doing some retail therapy for us both. WRONG!

Long story short...We bought Alexa a phone, but she wasn't happy, mom became even MORE unhappy, dad just shook his head. But the bottom line is I've been a *b*itch all the rest of the week and still can feel some twinges now. I started last weekend out like this..

...and finished the week - and am still smoldering like this...The only thing I like about the second image is I kinda look good in a bikini for the first time in 40 years. But the rest, Alexa doesn't want to ride in the car with me as I scared the bejessus out of her last night - but back to me.

Like the plots of many of the Incredible Hulk shows, I started out mild mannered and then something ticked me off. Well, I've gone through the week as the Hulk and like poor Hulky-poo even when I tried to do good, something would happen to tick me off again and again and again and AGAIN!

I could have beaten Lou Ferrigno out for the original part and wouldn't have needed the green makeup - I was already that way! My only consolation in all this is I got a new iPhone - been jonesing one of these for a long, long time. HOWEVER - I have already had to buy a new protective case because I dropped the phone before even owning it 72 hours, have spent at least $35 on how to books because I can't get the danged thing to work (my own personal internal techno chip is obsolete and they don't make a replacement part) and I have to spend the better part of today or a day in the very near future figuring out how to download or just manually enter all my calendar appointments on to my new phone.

OK, Maybe I'm being a little over the top here. Maybe this can be turned around to a positive experience. Do you think the networks would buy a pilot of a middle aged housewife with a teenaged daughter who turns into the Incredible Female Hulk? Maybe we could get Sela Ward to play me. That would make me feel better!

American Made...

I don't like to buy American made cars. Now I know why. We have too much in common.

You drive an American made car until you hit a mystery mileage point and boom! it starts to break down. Well, I hit 50 and like those cars in the driveways across the country - I started breaking down. I'm starting to feel and look like this classic...

I think we were even made in the same year (or close to it).My hair won't curl and the color is gone, the eyes don't work, my ears are giving me trouble, my skin is giving me grief, my plumbing needs work and my temperature controls are STILL are still out of whack even after the major repair work done last year!

I don't even want to talk about my system's internal control. My RAM - random access memory is definitely that - random. It works when it wants to and when it doesn't I need something to jump start it.

I wonder, am I on my way to being a 'reconditioned' model? I wonder what my CARFAX report would look like!

What a lovely wedding!

I am a sucker for a wedding and today's was just lovely. I was up at 5:15 a.m. just in time to watch Princes William and Harry leave St. James palace for Westminster Abbey. Over the years I've gotten up early to watch Princess Anne, Fergie and Andrew, Princess Diana and now her son, Prince William get married.

A long, long time ago Norman and I got to go to London and I've been in St. Paul's Cathedral and Westminster Abbey and traveled many of the streets seen in this morning's celebrations. I loved it there. I remember just arriving and wanting to see something famous. We watched buses pass and finally one passed that said 'Whitehall' and I remember thinking, that's somewhere important so we got on. The ticket taker asked us where we were going. We looked at each other and looked back to the conductor and asked, "Where is this bus going?" Once we established that we were literally just off the plane and were generally clueless, we found out you paid by how far you went and that eventually we would end up at Whitehall (houses many government offices and official departments) and would be just a short walk from Parliament and Westminster Abbey. This was one of the first of many helpful and considerate Brits who helped us get around and answered our questions during our stay.

When it was time (Whitehall) the conductor told us it was our stop and wished us well. I remember walking past these buildings and thinking that this was an entirely different world from the U.S. - you could just FEEL the history. I remember thinking some of these buildings were here before our country was even established. I had that feeling many times as we walked around London.

I long to go back. So, today on such a joyous and hopeful occasion, with my own wonderful memories coming back to me, I wish both William and Kate a future of happiness and wonderful memories of their own.

My Weekend...

Here is what I did this past weekend... 1. Abandoned my sick family for a weekend of rest and relaxation - for me ;-) 2. Learned what pudding shots were... 3. Learned I liked pudding shots... 4. Had some seriously good food, made by my fabulous scrapping friends...(loved the artichoke dip, chocolate chip cookies, soup, baked potato and two fabulous salads - and the recipe for the corned beef reuben dip!) 5. Actually got out of bed before 11:00 a.m. - one day by 9:00 a.m.! 6. Still missed a hot, just made, fab breakfast (but a microwave will heat up in a pinch)... 7. Learned my friend Penny has the cutest cock - named Robbie (who has his own harem)... 8. Discovered gray is beautiful - gorgeous Colleen! 9. Had a lemon drop or lemon shot - didn't like it :-( 10. Had the best &%$#* time with my peeps, gals, mental health counselors, buds - whatever, in the world! Thanks, Jess, Lynn, Colleen, Laurie, Penny, Suzanne, Mary, Chris, and Jen - you ROCK!

Cards, cards, who's got the cards...

I've taken my life in my hands and started to try and come up with card classes for the store. Sharon, Debbie, Mona, Linda and Laura can come up with cards in 30 seconds flat - me, more like 30 days if I'm lucky...

First they want me to stamp. I DON'T STAMP!! Maybe it I say it often and loud enough I may begin to believe it. I have the largest collection of stamps of anyone I know who doesn't stamp! So I decided to stick with what I think I can do - again, a stretch, thinking...

So here are photos of the samples of my March/April classes at Buffalo Stamps and Stuff.

I wish the photos were better. Above are three cards done with Tapestry peg stamps and Versacolor inks. I've always been intrigued with these stamps so I thought I'd try and give it a go.
My first favorite stamp company was Lockhart Stamps. I loved the simple style and coloring these stamps. They have a series they call 'windows' and I made a set using transparencies, popping the feature in the window and cutting out the window to view the inside of the card. The coloring was easy, the rest - OMG! It took me forever and I had to use inspiration and hints from the Lockhart design team.
These are also Lockhart images. Again, coloring was a piece of cake, but making the card...Each time I tackle a card class I say "never again!" In this class there is a cute bug in a jar - Caught a Bug? A comfy easy chair with a throw blanket, a cute little teddy bear and a bunch of ducks walking in a row. They are really cute, and with a little help from my friends - Thank you Debbie! I got the colors right.

Is it Spring yet?????

I've been working hard at maintaining the fantasy that I'm a sweet, cuddly black bear hunkered down in my cave sleeping away the winter - ahhhhhh. Well, not so much. Heaven knows I can sleep! but the baby bear, MIL bear and papa bear keep insisting I wake up! If it's spring I've got no problem, but if not - then leave me alone! I've got claws remember....

So much for my fantasy life. It's mid March. We've done the day light savings thing but our backyard still looks like a swamp and the grass is a sickly yellow-brown. Alexa is finishing up her last semester of middle school and then it's off to high school in September.

We had to attend an assembly for all incoming high school parents. I figured it was your usual sex, drugs, drinking kinda thing and boy was I right. The school system has officially put the fear of drugs, drinking and the law in us! Norman and I have been in education for the past thirty years or so and we are aware of what goes on in college, but we got a huge eye opener about the 12-20 set. Something that rattles me is that I know all Alexa's middle school friends and have met and spoken to all the parents. Next year she is going to a different school than all her friends save one. So all new friendships will be made and we're going to have to make an effort to know these kids and their parents if possible. It is a scary world out there.

On the good side, Alexa and her friends are responsible kids and I think she will seek the same kind of kids at her new high school. As far as Alexa was concerned this meeting was a must attend by us because if we didn't -- she wouldn't be allowed to go to Homecoming, Prom and other school activities - the only perks of high school...

Back to spring. My Hillside Scrappers will meet in a week or so for another relaxing, contemplative soul searching, bonding, creative weekend - yeah right, bring on the Country Pub II! No, seriously, I missed November's retreat because I went to New York for a a fabulous weekend with some Buffalo and around the US friends and I'm so looking forward to getting back with my peeps, posse, rick-rack pack!

So as I stretch and yawn and try to stay out of bed...Spring, here I come!

Alexa's 14th, LaBoum, The Melting Pot - Oh My!

I was so looking forward to a relaxing, quiet, let's hibernate like the bears January and February. Did I get that, NO! I mean what is this deal with having to provide birthday parties, party dresses, tennis lessons, and pantyhose for your teenager? Was that written in the orders you got when you went home from the hospital or in our case in the adoption documents? What happened to my nap time, weekends watching old movies - having money! All those are distant memories now...

Alexa's birthday was the 8th. It finally ended yesterday, the 19th. On her birthday she made me make her breakfast - breakfast! I never make her breakfast, unless it's for dinner! All right, I was a good mom and made her french toast for breakfast. Then came dinner - Olive Garden, here we come. It's Alexa's favorite (until she finds the most expensive restaurant in Buffalo that she can't live without). Then the day with south. I made the horrific mistake of buying Alexa gray tall Uggs on that web site that looks just like the real thing but is not... As soon as she opened the box, Alexa looked at them for less than a minute (I do not exaggerate here) and broke out in tears that the Uggs were not real! Meltdown followed. Long story short, we owe her REAL Uggs. I may have to take out a second morgtage...

Then it was time for Alexa's first fancy dance, LaBoum! This dance required a few important things and was missing a few important things. Requirement #1: A fancy party dress:

I have to admit, going dress buying was fun. Alexa looks good in almost everything she tries on. She's a size 1 - ONE! I've never been a size one in my life! I've been one size fits all, but never a size 1.

Requirement #2: Sparkly Shoes! these puppies cost almost as much as the dress! Must be strappy, must have bling and must have heels, CHECK!

Requiremnt #3: Have a BFF to go with! Alexa went dress shopping with her friend Grace and they went together to the dance and met up with their friends there. Don't they look so grown up!

Now for the the things that are NOT required for your first fancy dance- BOYS! It was my understanding (although information was very limited in coming) that boys and girls do not go together, don't dance together (with very, very few exceptions) and they have very little contact. Her father is thanking is lucky stars...

Since we've now started the dress, dance, possibly boy thing, can't we drop the birthday extravaganza thing? How many years more do I have to come up with birthday ideas? I'm voting for "I'm done!" But, not this year... Alexa looked at a variety of options and finally decided she wanted - The Melting Pot restaurant. We had never been there, but it looked expensive. As always, Alexa had done her homework and had the web site memorized. It turned out we could have her core group (plus mom and dad) and have a very nice time for what I probably would have spent for Alexa's usual birthday bash.

From left to right: Sarina, Laura, Grace Brenda, Alexa, Melissa, Haley and Frannie.

As the steam rises the girls get ready for the cheese fondue. they had apple pieces, veggie pieces and bread pieces to dip.



For desert Alexa had three types of chocolate. Mom and Dad had the Ying/Yang choice, dark and white chocolate in a ying yang pattern - sooooo good!



These were the dipping pieces, banana, strawberries, marshmallows, rice krispie treats, brownies, pound cake and cheesecake! The girls had a really good time and it was a new experience for several of them.

Another birthday year for Alexa is over. It's snowing outside as I type so maybe there is a chance for a little hibernating nap yet.

Yikes! It's been a month...

It's been a month since I blogged! As Sarah Palin would say, "WTF!" - That is my only and LAST reference, quote, mention and thought from Ms. Palin (not that she has an intelligent thought in her head that's worth repeating).

ANYWAY...It's been a busy kind of a month. Big doings at the store - Sharon is out in the land of fruits and nuts - and SUN - stuck at CHA, yeah, right... So I've been helping hold down the fort at the store. It's been keeping me pretty busy. I've also got two card classes I'm teaching at the store that took me forever to finalize because I'm so nervous and insecure in my card making abilities. Good news is that they are going well, at least the first one. We'll see about the next.

Alexa's birthday party has been finalized and while we thought about inviting Prince William and his fiancee, Alexa decided that may be just a little too much... She is having a small, select group for dinner at the Melting Pot. Mom's happy - no dishes, no cleaning, no clean-up and her father and I get to eat too since we're footing the bill! I'm still trying to remember what I got for my 14th birthday. I think socks...

Snow. We finally got some sizable snow but not as much as we expected and certainly not as much as my downstate family has been barraged with this winter. We have a very nice neighbor who goes up and down several houses on either side of his house AND across the street (us) up and down several house with his snow blower to do our sidewalks. Thank heaven for retirees!

The good news is that the trees are almost down. One is completely down the other is devoid of all decorations, which are boxed up but the tree itself is still sitting in the center of the living room, along with all the packed up boxes of decorations. Super Bowl Sunday is this week so it will probably take me until then to get DH to help get everything back in the basement where it's stored.

Lastly, I get to do one of the time honored joys of motherhood with a teen aged daughter - dress shopping for her first fancy dance. La Boum, it's called. This is the 8th grade winter dance. Mind you, boys go with boys, girls go with girls and I've got no clue as to why this means she has to get a fancy dress. She has no intention of dancing ESPECIALLY with a BOY! I'm liking her friend Brenda. Brenda isn't even going - she refuses to wear a dress...

Oh well, pictures to follow...

No Photos, Please!!!...

I'm thinking of becoming a horror movie star. Yeah, really...You oldsters might know of Lon Chaney, especially if you stay up late and watch TCM or AMC. Anyway, Lon Chaney was known as the man of a thousand faces (also the name of a movie about his life) because he used make-up to create so many characters - many of them horror quality - think the Hunchback of Notre Dame.

Well, I think I can out-do him (at least this month) without any make-up at all! My face is falling apart. Not to be un-done by my body, my face has decided to become it's own horror mask. From the top down:

My Hair - don't look too close or you'll see my beautiful gray hair mixed with my drab dirty blonde hair. Of course, it's tipped with my 'wish it was natural blonde' that is growing out way too quickly. To top it off, my hair has decided to go to sleep and is straight as a board and does not want to curl, hold a curl and laughs in the face of styling mousse and a curling iron.

My Eyes - Paul Newman is so safe...(God Bless) I never had his baby blues to begin with, mine are a drab gray blue. But my real problem - let's just say John Paul Jones couldn't have said, 'Don't fire until you see the white's of her eyes!" Mine are redder than Santa's suit! I had pink eye a few weeks ago and I looked like something from Twilight and just for fun the deep red keeps recuring, just to make me look weird!

My Ears - My ears itch like crazy! I cannot leave them alone! Nuf said...

My Nose - I've had a rash like dry skin on both sides of my nose for it seems like forever. Last week a friend told me she thought it was eczema! The good news is now I have a handle on WTF is going on, the bad news is how do I get rid of it?

My Lips - Welcome to winter! Chapped lips rule!

Put it all together and you have a horror mask that would do Lon Chaney proud! Everyone else, I don't think so and I'll apologize now. Well at least it's another good reason not to have my picture taken...

Another Year...

I've been itching to write a new entry but have felt obligated to come up with something witty. It's not quite happening so I'm just going to tell it like it is...

My New Year's Resolutions for 2011

1. To make a sincere effort to be on time! - (It's January 3rd, how's that working out...)

2. To get up in the morning at a NORMAL time! - (I was up at 7:00 to get Alexa out, basically telling her to hurry up while I sat at the kitchen table with an Oreo or two. I digress - I also went back to bed and since Joyce went out shopping, I stayed in bed until - 2:43 p.m.)

3. To put away our Christmas decorations before Easter...(How about SuperBowl Sunday, unless the Patriots are playing! GO PATS!!

4. To never, never, never, never, never, NEVER!! watch - 'Bridalplasty' - This one will be easy. I'll have Snooki and The Situation over for Jello shots before I watch this show!

5. To make a sincere effort to finish projects on time! Including scrap projects, organizing, cleaning, etc. Notice how time is a recurring theme in this post? Opps! Time to watch PTI so I'll have to get back to this later...